Ok, time for some thought provoking now

Breeding royals is not all plain sailing. You pair them up, and if your lucky you get eggs. With more luck you get nice babies hatch, regardless of what colour they are. They go through their first shed, and then it comes to feeding time. Now the fun starts. If your lucky they will feed without any problems, if your not so lucky you end up tearing your hair out and offering them eveything you can think of. Eventually you decide that the only thing you can do is assist feed them, which seems to do the trick. Then you go in one day and find them dead. This is the part that never seems to be discussed when breeding is mentioned, it's always how exciting it is etc etc. Losses are never or rarely mentioned.

I will be the first to stick my hands up now and admit that despite my best efforts last year I lost about 5-6 morphs and probably 6-8 normals, including 2 pewters. None of them got any more or less care or attention that the others. Some people that know me will already know this, and they will also know what I went through trying to get them going and keep them going. This is all part of breeding, and is something that you need to reconsile with yourself going into it. I also had success stories with little ones that I was convinced that I was going to lose, that went on to be ravenous feeders and look stunning.

Ok, so I'm not looking for sympathy, though heartbreaking it happens, and the financial loss or the loss to a project is also not important, what I would like is a nice plesant debate, with people discussing their feelings and views on the matter. If anyone would also like to admit what they have lost in terms of numbers of neonates that would also be nice, but no-one is compelled to do so, and no amount of badgering should be applied.

I have written this with a view to pointing out to anyone new to breeding royals what they COULD potentially have to deal with, nothing is set in stone, if you roll the dice you have to live with the consequences.

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We have lost one baby, but not due to feeding. I just had terrible incubator problems as you know and one of the only survivors from one of those clutches died during the first shed. I have assist fed one royal before and i should never have done it, i should have followed my instincts on body condition rather than what the balances say. The balances were wrong in this case, but the baby was fine and strike fed no bother a couple weeks later.

The biggest of our losses occurred during incubation, when the summer basically disabled my incubator and increased the top half by 5 deg F.

I am prepared to wait about 3 months i think.. depending.. for babies to eat. Usually within this time i get them going without any assist or forcing. I leave them well alone as you probably do. No doubt my time will come though when feeding does become an issue.

Not sure if this is worth adding, but we usually just stick with basics... and a live rat pup or multi pup has always worked, and fast. i've never needed to do anything other than this to get them going. I can persevere with frozen and get them going, but for fast results live is the way forward for me.

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As a relative new comer to royal breeding and with my first clutch of eggs sat in the incubator at this very moment i find this a very interesting read and will be interesting to see people's responses.

Having bred other animals in the past i am well aware and prepared for disappoint, just wish i could get the message across to the girlfriend that not all may survive etc and always be prepared for that one little disappointment.

I will be watching this thread closely to see what's said,

James

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Very well written and honest post, and definately worth mentioning.
I too have in the past bred other animals, not just the lizards, but also dogs and loosing a pup is never easy, especially those that needed that little bit of extra care.
Unfortunately it is a way of life, and Mother Nature will sometimes take some of her babies back. It cannot be avoided, no matter how much you try.

I am prepared for the up's and down's that comes with this hobby, and my aim to one day produce MY dream snake. Still going to moan and panic from time to time, as that's just who I am...lol

Thanks again though for sharing, and I do look forward to reading the replies to this post. Ta x

Ouch! Sorry to hear of the torrid time with hatchlings, Claire. But you did have a fruitful season, with more than enough to keep you busy!

I lost only one Ball last year, finally got it to take down an assisted feed and one live feed, but was then found dead a week after. A normal, but gutting all the same.

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Good thread Claire!!!

I lost 4 and put down 2 others last year. The most important was the 2nd male from the Reaper clutch. I have convinced myself that are not all supposed to live -- and therefore I don't fret about stepping in and giving "nature" aide in what it is trying to accomplish -- ending that snakes life.

I don't like to watch them suffer. And while they are a lower life-form than a dog or cat -- they still have a nervous system -- and deserve a "fair shot" a long vibrant life. If I feel that shot is unlikely I make the hard call. If you breed enough -- it is part of the bargain.

Some very good posts there :) A wise man once told me "the more you breed, the more you lose" So I had a very fruitful season last season, but the deaths were horrible. The worst part is questioning yourself and asking "DID I in fact do everything I could do?"

Jonny, I know you had terrible troubles all around last year and went through hell with it all, thankfully you had some stunning babies Like you I leave them be, quiet in their own room, only bothering them to feed, clean and water. I only ever use the scales when they have their first shed to record their hatching weight, after that I go by body tone and step in where necessary. Like you I start EVERYTHING with live, never bother with FT until I know they are going to be leaving, never had a problem converting them over either, once the feeding response is there they will eat anything, including fingers on a few occasions!

Dave, I had a similar situation with my stunning female pewter, she started eating all on her own, but would ony take mice, not a problem as I always have them, she took a couple of mice, and then decided food was no longer an option, I left her be until she started to look like she was going down hill, and seemed weak. I finally assist fed her, and 24 hours later she had died

Bill, very well written, and I agree, I can't bare to watch them suffer, last year in desperation with one female normal 66% het ghost I actually tube fed her, I used Markus Jayne's trick that he used for his miracle ball (see his website) and used a VERY fresh egg yoke, with a drop of water and a tiny amount of probiotic, she only had about 4ml tubed into her, and she seemed to perk up and become more active, 48 hours later she died in my hands I personally feel that they are just as intelligent as other animals, and don't consider them to be a lesser life form than a mammal, I know you didn't mean that in a nasty way Bill :) I have found that ALL my animals respond well to being held and comforted when they are unwell, even the snakes.

Sorry to hear about your Reaper though Bill, it's gutting when they are part of a special project.

Death unfortunately is all part and parcel of life, I ask myself almost daily now, did I do everything, or was there something wrong that I couldn't see, would these babies have suffered had they survived, or was dying the kindest thing for them, whatever the case, I will be on the ball this year with every tool in my arsenal available :)

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Sorry to hear that Claire but as you said the more you hatch the more likely you are to loss some but that does not make it any easier. I have not lost any hatchling so far but then I've only had 20 odd in 3 years.
I did lose have 08 mojave. I went in and found him died with no real sign before hand that anything was wrong PM siad bacterial infection which was gutting.

Sorry to read that Claire, although I'm amazed you had so many that wouldn't feed.

You do breed your own rodents don't you? Do you have a few mice ticking over? I find that anything that refuses a rat pup will eat a hopper mouse.

I've only lost one baby snake in 3 years of breeding due to not feeding, it was a 30g pied and looked doomed from the start.

I have lost a couple of yearling snakes that I just found dead for what I could see as absolutely no reason.

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I lost one last year, it hadn't taken any food for the first three months. I assist fed, it struggled with it and it took a while to eat it, all on it's own, but I found it dead the next day. I'm also surprised at how many you had the same claire.

I learnt, and gained some knowledge on this situation and I think you have to take pro active action EARLY! Some people say try everything and only assist/force feed as a last resort. I think inmost cases, after a bit of patience and after trying everything, this last rsort can be, like my case, a good few months after hatching.

By this time I thnk it's too late. The hatchling has lost so much weight, it's very weak, it's whole system has not rally got going, which is why they die after an assist IMO.

In the future I'm going to try for two weeks normally, during week 3 and 4 go through all the tricks etc, if still unsuccessful I wil assist/force after one month while they are still healthy and strong. I think this will be the best chance they have to survive.

I have not seen this or read about it, it's just something I'm going to experiment with if I get stragglers. I'm not going to sit it out for weeks on end, I'm going to attempt to nip it in the bud long before going anywhere near the point where it's too late. I'm sure pople will already do this but it's something I've thought about and am going to try.

A no nonsense, quick response approach if required is what I'm aiming for, whilst the snakes still strong and has the best chance.

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